Messages posted by Maxim C. Gatling - Forum (2024)

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I'm not saying it should be Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock, but GK should have a distinct advantage over Daemons. Daemons should have distinct advantages over certain other armies, etc. ond so on, and so on. And there should be several choices for players that want a more well-rounded army to play. This is where the argument that competitive play is ruining 40k comes in. If you're in a Tourney, that should be the luck of the draw. If I'm playing Demons, do I have to play the GK player before someone else takes him out in a Round-Robin? It's just their thing, you know?

If you force play-balance for the sake of tournament-style play, you sacrifice variety and what makes units/forces special. I'm not saying one way is better or worse, just that it's really hard to do both. Not many games do this well, even ones based on scalable d10 or d20 core mechanics.

What? Commissars suck now? C'MON... Where's Commissar Gaunt when ya need him?!? They're so fun to paint...

I guess they're just not needed now that Frenchie Ro-booot Bloo-berrie Gooolemonnnn is the Emperor now. Haw, haw hawh..."Ah stoole ze Emperor's sord!".... Bastards.

Someone tell me the Emperor is still alive in the fluff!! (Ok, I'll settle for 'technically' still alive.)

Mr Morden wrote:

Warpspy wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

As far as i know, Marines exist as a unit since the first game. Mega-zorgs and company only existed in Epic and were brought to 40k only in the last few editions, making 40k an "Epic in 28 mm." Before they were restricted to "Apocalypse games" (that nowadays makes no sense to have, because every 40k game is an Apocalypse one... ), and even before they were only in Epic and didn't exist in 40k proper. Warhammer 40k always has been a more or less skirmish-sized game. So to me it would make sense to have a "size" limitation and allow the bigger monstruosities and vehicles only in the bigger games. I think FW actually does this in their Horus Heresy game, and it is much more reasonable and balanced.

There were rules for big things in Rogue Trader as well as for Marines

I don't think that "big things" really means the same as today. That said, i don't know very much about Rogue trader. I do know that 2nd and RT were much more "skirmish" than 3rd and folowing editions. And definetely there were no rules for super-heavies or airplanes in the main standard rules of 40k. But anyway...

White Dwarf even called out the fact that all of the big stuff was in the game to start with - on day one in RT

They had rules for 30m long dinosaurs and Catchan devils and Juggernaughts - vehicles that measured 24" on the table or larger and which could carry other vehicles.

I can confirm that in WH40k:RT the rules allowed for pretty much anything. I'm not saying it scaled well, but there were rules for making up literally anything and using it in the game. Remember, there were no vehicles then. No Rhino. No Land Raiders. Just grav-tanks scratch-built from deodorant bottles, plastic spoons and a straw!

WH40k:RT had rules for flying jet-surfboards. Yes, they made a model of it. Yes, I have one. Yes, I vividly remember the game I decisively won using it. Sky-surfer Marine with a bolt-pistol and a Vortex Grenade. Mmm-MMM!!!

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gwarsh41 wrote:
Honestly I want to see more stuff like the build your own landraider. Open war rules for stuff that GW wont make kits for. Bring back all the old 4th/5th editions crazy FW units that never were made. Plague tower, baneblade monestarry thing. Khorne tower of skulls. Toss in a few basic ideas on where to get the parts to build them and I would buy the hell out of that book. Would love to use big crazy silly models in apoc!

I'm with you, buddy. But this cannot happen until the game goes to a d10 based system. Mathematically, they're WAY past the point where they can write in a structure where you can invent something, give it stats and then come up with a quantified points value which doesn't require hours and hours of play-testing to be deemed "fair" to use in a game with strangers.

It's a fundamental design flaw in the core mechanics of the game. Even Rick Priestley (the guy who wrote WH:40k and Beyond the Gates of Antares) acknowledges this mathematical fact. 40k is inherently un-scalable, which is a big reason they had so many problems translating it into Epic and BFG successfully.

We used to wish we could play Grand Campaigns (like you can with lots of other games) where our Fleet could buzz into the system, drop our pods, land our vehicles and begin our assault on the reactors. Fight a grand battle, then when our HQ's got close enough, scale up to 28mm and fight mano-e-alieno. Go ahead, try it. The game mechanics are just too dissimilar. You have to be able to master circular logic like Rev. Graham trying to convince Prof. Dawkins that Big J is real. It's more work than it's worth.

I would LOVE to see 40k go to base d10. It would totally open up the options for player creativity and for their other games. Imagine learning 40k, then playing...Inquisitor without the beastly learning curve because the rules have the same core mechanics.

Primark G wrote:
What if he could restore d6 wounds to vehicles and had a conversion beamer?

I can support this. Not OP and lore-friendly.

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Unit1126PLL wrote:
So I figure he'd be the same as a normal Techmarine, with +1 wound and +1 attack.

Just like the Librarian. For probably a few more points (well, almost certainly).

Probably, but then why have him? What edition did Techmarines lose the ability to perform battlefield repairs to vehicles? (Sorry, getting back into it after a hella long Warp Storm)

I think they could make a ton of cash with a couple Sisters plastic kits. I think at this point, SOB players would be more than pleased with plastic and all the options that come with it, even if there wasn't anything "new" needing new rules.

That would explain the late arrival of the Demiurg. Can't trademark that. Maybe they're waiting for a cool trademarkable name for the Dorfs to come to one of them in a vision while sitting on the toilet.

That's it. Fer shur.

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SirWeeble wrote:
Maybe they can't copyright "Tau", but they can copyright "T'au". Is "T'au" used in their books? They've got it on their site.

I could be wrong, but I think T'au was a Vulcan character in Star Trek. I'm thinking Original Series....was a chick.... Damn these old memory circuits...

Plastic Sisters sounds like a punk band.

It does seem like an oversight, doesn't it?

No worries. Primaris kit + BitzBox = Beautiful, unique Techmarine nobody else has.

Playing around with the new kit, the legs are bigger and the chest is like 1mm wider (very annoying) but heads, arms and shoulder pads are pretty much interchangeable. A little drilling, a little filling, add a wrench here, a servo-arm there...viola.

I love the old metals, and I have my considerable weight in pounds of them, but I have to admit the plastics are easier and more amenable to conversions.

Rogue Trader Codex!

Or at least 3 or 4 pages in an Index! Rogue Trader retinue should be the ultimate HQ of the Imperial Soup faction, as lore-wise they can lead almost any Imperials, including Space Marines.

pismakron wrote:
Grey Knights has been replaced, just like old marines has been replaced by Primaris Marines. And just like old marines, Grey Knights were not removed from the game, but has been allowed to soldier on with old models and mediocre rules, until the day comes, where GK can be cut without too much of an angry response from the customer base. It is called being squatted by gradual decay. Cheers.

Gradual decay? Yeah, sometimes it seems to me that no matter what, Nurgle wins WH40k.

Thanks, guys. This answered a lot of the questions I had without starting a new post. I have a couple to add. (by the way, I'm back into it after an even longer break. I don't think I've played more than half a dozen games since 3rd Edition)

Old-school shoulder-mounted heavy weapons. Can I still use them? I know it's just an ascetic, but I understand a Heavy Weapons team has 2 dudes in it now. Do I need to mount them on one of those big bases, or can I just move the two dudes around together within normal Unit coherency rules? Does the "loader" get to shoot his lasgun, or is he pretty much there for show?

Since I will be able to field about 3 Companies of Infantry, https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/379892.page my theme for this Nostalgia army is "Veterans". As I have about 300 dudes, I have a lot of flexibility on how I equip them. Obviously, it will be a rare occasion when I field the entire army, plus it'll take me about a year to get them painted....ugh. Or more. I left off on my first attempt in 2014.

Anyway, I want the maximum amount of Veteran Squads possible, giving them the maximum amount of Specials. I really love Plasma and I'm quite fond of Melta guns as well. I'm not sure what Command Points do for me yet, but I understand they're important and I want as many as possible. You have any suggestions for me?

I don't care about winning per se, as much as I care about having a bad-ass, heavily converted, decently painted army that wows the f'ing socks off anyone who sees it. And is (mostly) legal to play in an actual GW store. I say mostly because I'm going to make some old-school Assault Squads with my leftover Marine jetpacks and I've got a Commissar on a jetbike...that kind of stuff.

Also, I have a Russ or three, 2 Super-Heavies, maybe 3 Sentinels? Ogryns, I have a squad or two of Ogryns.

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Here's what I'm going for...

Daedalus81 wrote:
[spoiler]

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:

It's a nice thought but then you need to rework all the aura abilities and the costs of those models along with the edge cases that work, because they have layered saves. And then deal with the inevitable griping of how GW is making a cash grab to force you to buy the D10s.

I wouldn't mind such a thing, but I just don't see it happening very easily.

I thought that would be the case, but I don't think so. (with just those changes I suggested). You see, the % comes out roughly the same. Now, if you start doing stuff like saying "I want Movie Marines" and adjusting their stats outside those boundaries I suggested, then yes, you would have to adjust the points values.

My point is, it can be done and done fairly easily. You wouldn't have to change everything to d10. Or at least not right away. Special Abilities could use the exact same mechanics they do now. In fact, I think that if they did this (they won't!) but if they did...they should only change the core mechanics for one edition and then ease the rest into d10's. Or not. There's no reason why you can't mix d6 and d10. Everyone who plays has a bucket of d6's already and almost everyone who games has at least a handful of d10. D10 are cheap (unless you insist on getting GW branded d10's which are out of production, but super-cool with an Inquisition symbol for the '1' pip...)

You know what? I'm going to go so far as to say they shouldn't make it

all

d10. I don't think one person on this forum would disagree with me when I say I hate it when GW changes the rules just to force you to buy all-new stuff.

It's a lovely pipe-dream though.

I'm not beating a dead horse. This horse still has plenty of life left in him...

There'd be a lot less crying and the math would be way easier if they would just switch to a d10 based system. (Yes, this again) I read the 8th Ed. rules and it would actually be quite easy without disrupting the core mechanics at all. Seriously, you could go play right now with d10's. Add 2 to WS, BS and Sv. Change the "To Wound" mechanic from 2+,3+,4+,5+,6+... to 2+,4+,6+,8+,10+. For "To-Hit" count "0" as "0" and not "10". Push the Invulnerable save all the way up on the scale (5+ would become 9+) but allow both regular save

Invulnerable save (which is just a throwback to previous editions) to compensate for the reduced % chance of Inv. Save working.

Bam. Done. As-is, the game plays out the same. There's just a minor variation of % chance of hitting with more powerful units, which is a good thing. Going forward, future Indexes and Codexes would be easier to tweak for balance. A minor +1 here and there wouldn't have such a devastating impact when amplified across your entire Battalion, but still make a substantial difference. Finally you can make more Unit variations which are actually different from each other.

Me in 1990 "So what's the deal with all the d6's? I thought you Brits were on the metric system."

Rick Priestley in 1990: "Well, I agree, but the decision was made not to disenfranchise new gamers who might not have access to polyhedral dice. Everyone has a Yahtzee game in their closet."

Me: "But you have to have the miniatures to play!. Dice are cheap, miniatures aren't. (Even back in 1990, we cried about GW's prices) You have to buy the miniatures in a game store, and it seems the only game stores on the planet that don't sell polyhedral dice are Games Workshops..."

Rick Priestley: "Believe me, it wasn't my decision..."

Me: "Sigh. Ok, next question..."

Ironically, of course, WH40k RT had something like 3 pages all about Dice and what to do if you didn't have any, as well as in-game uses from almost every polyhedral dice in the set as well as d100 and even d1000 charts. Obviously I'm not suggesting WH40k get all complex and need d12's, d8's, and d20's, but d10's really are the way to go. I'm not holding my breath though. I know a lot of you don't want to give up the d6 system (was an article about it on BoLS)

Zingraff wrote:
So what exactly was "3. IG assault squads "?

Sounds to me like the sort of thing that would fit into certain IG/human armies. Was it heavily armoured infantry with power swords, or a mob of fanatics armed with sticks?

Chainsword, Laspistol and a Jump Pack. Of course, back then you could pay extra points and upgrade them to bolt pistols, give one a plasma pistol, etc.

I love reading this post. A lot of the stuff I'd forgotten about. I think the thing I miss the VERY most....: Rogue Traders.

Seriously, that was IN the title of the game. They could easily write a page or two to bring back Rogue Traders in a very Inquisition HQ sort of way and make them lore-friendly by allowing them most of the options available to pretty much any character in the game, including Xenos.

I do hope they bring them back, but not as Imperials. I like the Demiurg idea, but I'd like them to look like AoS dwarves.

I can see them feeling as if the Emperor abandoned them to the 'Nids and they're rather bitter about it.

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Remember now...the Squats weren't disappeared due to flagging sales. They sold well. They disappeared because the Designers lacked imagination to reinvent them.

I never stopped collecting the miniatures, but I haven't played religiously since 3rd Edition. Every couple years I bust out the original WH40k:RT rulebook and thumb through it and, while there were lots of bad ideas, I'm still amazed at all the cool ideas that fell by the wayside.I saw the Repulsor and thought "Hey, this is a move in the right direction! Looks way cooler than Rick Priestley's "Grav Attack Tank" deodorant bottle".

Is there anything you wish they'd bring back, or an idea you liked that never made it to Production? Here's my wish list off the top of my head:

1. Zoats (Hard to find those Dragon Ogre bodies...)
2. Imperial Jetbikes (Yeah, the Custodes have them, but the Space Marines and IG used to have them as well)
3. IG assault squads
4. Power Shield options for IG and SM assault squads (No, Storm Shields are different.)
5. Power Field generators
6. Conversion Fields and Displacer Fields
7. And what list like this would be complete without Squats?

Stuff I'm glad they got rid of:
1. Temporal Distort
2. "Hiding" rules
3. Stupid-looking Dark Eldar
4. Rules for throwing rocks
5. Anti-Plant grenades

Stuff I'm glad never went 'into Production':
1. Slaan
2. Mutants (Cool idea, but the d1000 charts were a nightmare)
3. Psychic Ogryns

I'm sure I got more, but I have to get back to work. Let me know what you wish they'd bring back.

I came back to the game under the promise that all my minis would be usable, and for the most part that is true. Remember, originally a Rogue Trader army could have almost any Imperial forces in it. Now, they haven't had a Rogue Trader Army list (that I know of) since Book of the Astronomicon.

I don't think they're going under.

However, a few years back they made some decisions which improved their bottom line and made the shareholders very happy, but the result was their price point made it profitable to cast resin knock-offs and sell them out of China. You could always make knock-offs, but if you do it yourself you know that it's kinda expensive. It wasn't until the last couple price hikes I could cast resin figures cheaper than buying them. Normally I only cast parts I can't get more of because it really is kind of a project-level hassle and expensive when you screw up.

In the long term, it's a huge mistake.

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They put a lot of money into their process, and to do this they had to hike prices. But they did improve their process and the plastics are better quality and cheaper to produce than ever.

Ok, so if they don't lower their prices, they need to stabilize them for a few years so that it becomes less profitable to produce knock-offs and they need to stop f***** the local retailers. I understand their position on on-line retailers, and I actually support it because it helps the LFGS. Problem is for the LFGS, GW is harder than ever to keep to the letter of their annual reseller contracts.

ConsecratedIron wrote:
What were the Zoats, not familar with them. Are they back from Rogue Trader days? They look cool ,SCIFI centaur.

Sorry if this was already answered. The Zoats were a combat critter genetically engineered by the Tyranids. Not like the normal way Tyranids do it, but actually genetically engineered like the Emperor did the Primarchs and Monsanto does with your vegetables.

Zoats were intelligent, and any left behind on planets started developing their own cultures, etc. Apparently, when out of contact with Tyranid overlords too long, they lost control of them. Some Zoats are even Psykers. All this is according to the original W40k-RT book. The Tyranids even fed them special chow called "Zoatabix" (not kidding!).

But to the original question, while GW hasn't officially hinted at new races that I know of, if you look at their entire line of products you'll see that certain high level GW employees are pushing for it. For example, in Battlefleet Gothic you have official rules and ship minis for what are basically re-named Squats. Forget what they're called? Demiurge or something. Then you have multiple occurrences of Hrud which are not only space-faring. They've been mentioned several times as burrowing underground on planets and like Orks are considered an "infestation". Most of the rumors I've heard are they are the 40k version of "Skaven". Most of the Hrud stuff I've heard actually comes from FFG stuff, so is not 'canon', but there are canon references to the Hrud around.

Don't hold your breath though. Unless GW is desperate, adventurous or gets some new high level direction that wants to experiment, we'll probably never see the Squats or Skaven in 40k in any incarnation...or any other alien race.

I can't speak with any authority on the Codex, but I'll tell you what I'd like to see in plastic kits:

Roughriders. Horses, legs and weapon arms. Then you could convert whatever army you want into them.

Plastic Mordians, Steel Legion or other iconic Guard units. Tallarn even. I like the Forgeworld stuff, but seriously...that's a lot of cash I don't have to get enough to buy a whole army of them and at the rate IG die, you need a LOT of them.

Plastic Kaskrin. According to the current Codex you can give certain units like Veterans Carapace armor. How we supposed to do that, really? Sculpt it ourselves, or have half our armies looking like the same 5 metal Kasrkins? If you had a plastic kit, at least you could head swap with the Regiment of your choice.

Plastic Ogryns and Ratlings. Ratlings I'm stuck with in metal and Ogryns I'm having to convert from Warhammer Ogres and let me tell you the possibilities aren't awesome.

Unless you're an Eldar, the Grim Future is a big sausage fest. Girls are good enough to be Commissars and Inquisitors but not Guardsmen?

For me it's not just about the money spent. And boy, have I spent a lot of money. I even went so far as to fly to England back in 1990 for two reasons: See real castles and visit Games Workshop and talk my way inside so I could meet my gaming heros, Rick, Jervis, Blanche and Mike McVey.

40k is over 25 years old with a backstory that spans the galaxy. Have you ever actually read Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader? The

one? We're talking Jules Verne type technology that didn't exist then but is so common now almost everyone has it. Like...cell phone headsets. Google Glass. RFID chips. WIFI and Bluetooth all kinds of stuff. How bout "

"?!? I think it's fair to say that there was more sci-fi that actually exists now than there was in all of Star Trek put together.

It was THAT kind of science fiction. Sure, they borrowed a lot from other sources, but it was the stuff 80's nerds dreamed of.

And it grew and it evolved and became books and movies and video games. My one regret is that Rick Priestley's vision didn't come to fruition, which was that it would evolve to be a scalable game using d10 mechanics, which is why you have Space Hulk, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic, Space Crusade, Inquisitor etc. etc. and none of the games are really compatible with each other. It took Fantasy Flight Games to bring all that together. I hope his new project is successful and I wish him all the best. Can't wait to play it.

The one thing I miss about original 40k was that it was a small unit tactics game. Currently, there's no version of 40k that re-creates that. The 40k rules are too dumbed down and written to sell more minis, and the FFG games are too involved for more than a squad per side.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Maxim C. Gatling wrote:I'm rather distressed that Jokaero have been reduced to enslaved poo-flinging monkeys despite the fact...err...previous fiction that they could not be enslaved, bartered with or even communicated with...

But the whole using Daemon Swords, nun-killing, Titan hiding...I just want to throw up. I haven't read the entire fluff section and now I'm not going to. I will INSIST to my gaming group that it simply does not exist. It didn't happen. All I need are the stats and the army list and only because I want to be able to play 40k with my friends after 10 years of not having a 'legal' fieldable army.

Indeed. And welcome to Dakka, Mr Gatling. You will find things... very different here.... when compared to the FFG forums.

Thanks for the welcome. Indeed I do. I find the FFG forums being for WH40kRPG's are a bit more ...shall we say, open-minded on fluff issues, which isn't always a good thing. Let's not bring up the "Women in 40k" topic though, shall we?

Personally, I like Khorne's "new" direction. It's just more...chaosy. A noble Khorne just doesn't fill the void in my soul like an evil Khorne does.

Thank you Matt Ward for transforming my Grey Knights into evil, bloodthirsty, nun-killing, xenos-colluding, heretics.

I do like complaining sometimes. It makes me feel better. Especially on a topic like this where I feel justified.

As for playing older systems, how much fun is it playing by myself? Uhh...bout none. How bout that? I know exactly zero people who play 1st or 2nd edition rules. What's the comparison with electricity? The rules didn't get any BETTER. They got dumber. How is that good? How is that progress? They're assuming their customers are stupid so they made grenades a close-combat weapon. How does that make the game better? It doesn't.

"Well, we wanted everyone to be able to play the game, so that's why we went with d6's. Everyone's got a Yahtzee in the closet." - Rick Priestley, May, 1991

Guess what. It's now 2011 and just like 1991 anyone who plays the game buys the game in shops that sell d10's, d20's, d100's... (or online...). Just like in 1991 it's idiotic to think the game isn't accessible to people because they don't have access to DICE. (Sorry, Rick. I love ya buddy! I'm still a big fan!)

They should have made scalable versions of the rules. If Apoc is now the macro-end of the rules, why dumb-down the Core rules? Inqusitor was supposed to be micro-end of the rules, but due to bad support, too much detail and yet ANOTHER expensive miniature range which wasn't even the same scale, it failed. WH40k used to be a multi-squad-level game. Some of us miss that. Sorry if that offends you.

Making the rules "more accessible" to the "younger crowd" is insulting and degrading. GW is on top not because their rules set is awesome which it isn't. It's on top because of the bad-ass miniatures and people like the fluff which is diverse, enormous and downright cool (most of the time).

So when they put out crappy fluff, fans have a right to be a tad upset.

Once upon a time in the Warhammer 40k universe, there was a Chaos God named Khorne. More than anything, Khorne loved combat and martial skill. His followers would not kill women or children, the elderly or the weak, as they simply were not worthy opponents. There was no glory in killing the innocent. They were simply ignored. Warriors of Khorne sought to spill the blood of worthy enemies and offer their skulls to Khorne, the Blood God. One could almost say Khorne was 'Noble'....

True story. That's the way Khorne was depicted in early WD mags and the first incarnation of Epic 40k.

Damn shame Khorne had to drag the Grey Knights down with him.

I'm rather distressed that Jokaero have been reduced to enslaved poo-flinging monkeys despite the fact...err...previous fiction that they could not be enslaved, bartered with or even communicated with...

But the whole using Daemon Swords, nun-killing, Titan hiding...I just want to throw up. I haven't read the entire fluff section and now I'm not going to. I will INSIST to my gaming group that it simply does not exist. It didn't happen. All I need are the stats and the army list and only because I want to be able to play 40k with my friends after 10 years of not having a 'legal' fieldable army.

I bought http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FzujIlFtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg the day it came out and I've been bitching about GW ever since.

Believe me, they don't care. Oh, the designers care (the older ones anyway) but the guys who make all the real decisions (owners of the Jaguars in the parking lot) don't. Their goal is to sell miniatures.

They don't care if the game is good!!! If they did, it wouldn't use d6's in a d10 world! EVERY successive version becomes more and more dumbed down. Why? So you'll either need more miniatures or have to buy new ones. Believe me, before Apoc it was a very, very sore point with us greybeards.

My very first Assault Squad...I spent months and months collecting and trading for plasma pistols, power swords, power axes and coffin-shaped shields (you didn't used to get much 'extra' bits, see). No sooner do I get them exactly like I want them and fully painted than>>> They change the rules and I can no longer have power axes or power shields. Rules-wise they simply were no longer allowed.

I finally get my Imperial Jetbike assembled and painted...FINALLY....and they disappear from the rules. To add injury to insult, they show up some 10 years later...but only ONE and some jackass Space Marine has the 'last known Imperial Jetbike'. ??? I got FIVE of them in my bits-box not including the two Mk2 Bullocks.

See what I mean? If it makes you feel better, by all means send them an email, but the powers that be will never even see it. All they see is "Oh, look...$$$...the GK's are successful. Ok, now we'll make enough to supply our stores."

I don't know how often GW supplies its stores, but my guess is (like most retail game stores) not more than once a week.

So, OP bought 6 boxes and the guy behind him bought one. Sold Out. Notice anything?

Yes, GW does this on purpose to jack up demand. It's a fairly common tactic in retail and they are nefariously and infamously unfair when dealing with independent stockists when it comes to supply of new mini kits. I remember the Fortress of Redemption our local store ordered 10 in hopes of getting 5 and got 1. Meanwhile his competitor got whatever he ordered and had stock on hand for at least 2 weeks. GW does stuff like this and they do it on purpose.

The math is obvious. OP, don't feel bad. Next time hang out outside the GW store, jack up the price to $40/box and sell them to the birthday brats (OK, if you do that then maybe you should feel bad...).

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